What's the diff between Brutus & Bluto?


On James Montgomery Flagg
*Updated email on the original article at the above link,
prompted by the following controversial paragraph:

Tell 'em!"Flagg (appropriate name, eh?) also changed many perceptions on the Marine Corps. Back then, the phrase Tell it (that) to the Marines held the connotation that Marines were so gullible, you could tell 'em anything and they'd believe it. Flagg depicted an angry man removing his coat for a fight, having read of german atrocities. The phrase since, denoted that if you told the Marines, they'd be outraged and do something about it."   --from Flagg

*Please note our dear USMC Captain Hill has updated us 
on his research with the following:

Headquarters reply to inquiry of Captain Hill, USMC

Subj: Tell it to...
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 22:22:34 AM EST
From: hillr005@hawaii.rr.com (Richard A. Hill)
To: Rkpuma
[Attached: Headquarters PDF files from the Marine Corps Historical Center]

RK, Please excuse my absence, I'm heavily into a new class term, and pending deployment to Guam. Regarding the phrase "Tell it to the Marines", and I'm almost sorry I started all this, here's how its ending up:

I wrote the historical society, and after a few months, I received a reply, or should I say I received the mangled envelope that the reply was sent in. Unfortunately, the reply was lost somewhere between Washington and Honolulu. Anyway, I wrote again, requesting a copy of what they had sent originally. They were happy to comply.

I've attached 2 PDF's of what I received. Now, here's the humbling part. The whole damn quote got started by Sir Walter Scott in a fictional tale of naval exploits called Red Gauntlet (which I plan on reading when I get to Guam). In his "historical fiction" he did use the negative connotation.

The letter from the Historical Center indicates that, and I'll probably read it myself when I get to chapter 7. What I don't know is which character in the work of fiction we could attribute the phrase to. And I won't know until I read the book. Once finished, I'll give you another of my opinionated perspectives so we can finally drive a stake in this beast.

Other than that, I enjoy your e-mails, always something there that makes the day go by a little lighter. Regarding your love affair with Ocean View, the closest I've ever been is an overnighter to Norfolk. Not a bad place... [edited for the web] I've probably taken too much of your time, and I've got some class work to do, so until next time, and keep them coming, -Rick

R K's excerpted/edited text from the attached mail sent Captain Hill
by USMC Headquarters, Marine Corps Historical Center:

"Dear Captain Hill:
...it is probably not possible to provide a definitive explanation (of) "Tell it to the Marines"... It was widely believed (17th century) diarist Samuel Pepys... (wrote) that a traveler at the Court of King Charles II of England who reported any strange or unusual happening was told to "tell it to the Marines"... as (any) well-informed/widely traveled gentlemen of the British Royal Marines, it could be assumed to be true.

The "Pepys Diary" origin... was printed in the Marine Corps Gazette (Dec 1918 and thus) was widely held as authentic [but] writings by several scholars [indicated] the phrase 'has actually been written by Colonel William Price Drury, of the British Royal Marines [using Pepys style, in his preface to his Petrified Eye and Other Stories, published in 1904].

It should be noted... [the phrase is traceable back to] Sir Walter Scott who uses the quotation "Tell it to the Marines-- the sailors won't believe it," in Red Gauntlet (Vol II, Chapter 7). Indeed, [that renowned] Marine Corps Historian, Allan R. Millett, has written in the Introduction to Semper Fidelis: the History of the United States Marine Corps, that the origin [possibly emanating] from the reign of Charles II might have a meaning that is not very kind to the Marines... the king may have wanted his audience to know that his sailors were too smart to believe... that [his] Marines had a reputation for gullibility that would make them susceptible to such "tall tales".

The World War I poster art of James Montgomery Flagg was widely popular and successfully utilized in the recruitment of young Americans... to the Corps... there is no doubt that the poster and phrase did [finally] portray the Marine Corps in a positive fashion.

I can add a personal recollection which, unfortunately may confuse matters still more... (recalling vividly listening to a popular television commercial for Marine Midland Bank in Buffalo, NY when I was quite young... "Tell it to the Marines" was sung in a very 'upbeat' note. (It) has survived any variety of specific connotations through the ages (including advertisements for banks!), while retaining its popularity to this day.

I hope this information proves useful.

Sincerely,
[signed]
Robert V. Aquilina
Assistant Head, Reference Section
History and Museums Division (March 26 01)
----------------------------------------------------

-see Flagg and prior emails below:

Subj: "Tell it to the Marines"
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:52:45 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: "Captain Hill" USMC
To: rk@rkpuma.com

Regarding your interpretation of the phrase "Tell it to the Marines", you stated the phrase held the connotation that Marines were so gullible, you could tell 'em anything and they'd believe it. If any one group held that perspective, it would be the Army, as an inter-service rivalry jab. If the American public believed Marines were so gullible, we wouldn't be here today.

Here's my perspective, conveniently drilled into my brain housing group while sweating my balls off in Boot Camp at Parris Island: "Tell it to the Marines" is historically what the British King would say to anyone who brought him an outlandish story. It was the King's way of determining the truth of the matter at hand. He knew his Marines were well traveled and could confirm or deny what was presented to the King. The Marines' loyalty to the King was unquestionable, and their integrity was beyond reproach: they wouldn't corrupt a story for their own benefit.

Now that's history, but we still work toward that end. We're not perfect, and never have been. We try to impress history and traditions, like "Tell it to the Marines", to our recruits to give them a foundation of ethics and values, something they generally lack when arriving at Boot Camp. If you could tell the story straight, without corrupting for your own benefit, I and a whole Corps of Marines would appreciate it.

Semper Fidelis
Captain Hill, United States Marine Corps
--------------------------------------------

Subj: Re: "Tell it to the Marines"
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 9:33:15 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: rk@rkpuma.com
To: Captain Hill

Hello Captain Hill and thanks for writing. First let me say it is not MY interpretation you refer to, but I researched the Flagg article extensively and found several sources that indicated, the phrase had an unfavorable and condescending intent around the turn of the century. Secondly, I was married to a Marine and widowed in 1977 and you won't find ME condescending about the Corps. His son (and mine both, Parris Island graduates) is now a Staff Sergeant, at the tender age of 25 and an award winning writer.

Please note also, I have several links [here] that go to Marine Corps pages and feel it is a service I've provided in promoting the Corps. Perhaps your 'objectivity' (and rightfully so) read an interpretation into what was said. Look up 'connotation and denotation'.

A popular phrase may have several sources and meanings because it is oral history. You must consider context. I personally was incredulous to learn that interpretation of the phrase; couldn't understand how it had come about. Our debt to the Corps is immeasurable: but I referred to a view held by many at the turn of the century and agree it likely arose from rivals, perhaps both Army and Navy...

...Thank you again for taking the time to write your very intriguing remarks regarding the Flagg piece. It will illuminate for those who could think I personally might hold a less than adoring view of an integral part of America's defense. Semper Fi, dear Captain Hill --R K Puma

***

Subj: Flagg Net Page
Date: 01-02-09 20:44:20 EST
From: william.mineo@usarec.army.mil
To: rk@rkpuma.com

What a wonder page! Just a sidebar:
You may be interested in knowing that the United States Army Recruiting Command, headquartered at Fort Knox KY, will be dedicating a very large parade field (Flagg Field) this June 14th [2001] (of course, this is also, none too ironic, Flag Day, as well as the Army's 226th Birthday) in honor of our beloved Uncle Sam illustrator.

Of course, this will also be the 85th Anniversary of Flagg's "I Want You" Uncle Sam Poster. At any rate, I was doing some additional research and ran across your page and thought I'd pass along my appreciation for it; thanks!!!
william.mineo@usarec.army.mil
------------------------------------

Subj: Re: Flagg Net Page
Date: 01-02-09 20:44:20 EST
From: rk@rkpuma.com
To: william.mineo@usarec.army.mil

Hello: What a wonder e-mail! I have included it on the Flagg page, along with a link to the Headquarters of the United States Army Recruiting Command (USAREC) located in Fort Knox, Kentucky within your mail to us. Thank you so much for taking the time to write, expressing appreciation. Sincerely, R K Puma http://rkpuma.com
NOTE: Should the linked site posts more about the Flagg field dedication on the web, we'd be happy to link that also: so please contact us in that event.
------------------------------------

In a message dated 01-02-10 23:39:54 EST, he also wrote:
<< It was sincerely my pleasure, you have my permission to list my email: william.mineo@usarec.army.mil You're a great American! ® >>

Awwwwwww shux, guy. You're pretty neat yourself! --R K

-Back to Flagg   
©2003 R K Puma    rk@rkpuma.com
HOME     Menu
THE WRITE SPIN